I'd like to return to Thich Nhat Hanh's language of allowing, and just ask you to please summarize and even continue exploring that with me. I kind of like what, I'd like to go forward with what he says, as well as perhaps other offerings from the Dhammapada on this topic of well pain. And I like what you said about the Dhammapada actually being sort of effort heavy, even moralistic. And I guess I do like how Thich Nhat Hanh translates these instructions, the Dhammapada instructions into softer, more relational idiom, as you said. Perhaps a poem from the Tang dynasty or from the Song dynasty, Qing'an comes to mind. or Qing'an, no, Su Dongpo, Su Dongpo from the Song dynasty, was a very, very helpful poet in my previous explorations. And then, of course, Qing'an from the 19th century would be interesting. Robert Creeley, I'm curious what he might say about this topic of pain and second arrows, that kind of thing.
Yes—let’s stay with Thích Nhất Hạnh’s language of allowing, and let it soften the terrain around pain without denying its reality. I’ll weave together four strands, as you asked:
Thích Nhất Hạnh’s relational idiom of allowing
The Dhammapada on pain, effort, and the “second arrow” (implicitly)
Classical Chinese poetry (Su Dongpo, Tang/Song sensibility)
A brief, careful nod to Robert Creeley’s modern, stripped-down attention
Throughout, I’ll keep the emphasis on pain as something to be met, not managed.
1. Thích Nhất Hạnh: Allowing as Relationship, Not Technique
Thích Nhất Hạnh rarely frames practice as control. His language is deliberately interpersonal, even when speaking to bodily sensations.
Instead of:
“observe pain”
“investigate suffering”
he says things like (paraphrased closely):
“Hello, my pain. I know you are there.”
“I allow you to be here.”
“Breathing in, I am aware of the pain in my body.”
This matters.
Pain is not an object under surveillance.
It is a visitor, a child, a messenger.
Allowing means:
not pushing away,
not explaining,
not demanding transformation.
Awareness itself becomes care.
This is where Thích Nhất Hạnh gently dismantles the second arrow:
the added suffering of “this shouldn’t be happening”.
2. The Dhammapada: Clear, Bracing, and Effort-Heavy
You’re right: the Dhammapada often sounds austere, even moralistic.
It repeatedly emphasizes:
vigilance,
restraint,
purification,
guarding the mind.
For example (very loosely rendered):
Pain is unavoidable;
suffering comes from the untrained mind.
There is little overt tenderness here. The emphasis is on discipline.
Thích Nhất Hạnh does something crucial:
he keeps the insight,
but changes the tone.
Where the Dhammapada says, “Guard the mind,”
Thích Nhất Hạnh says, “Take care of the mind.”
Same wisdom.
Different emotional climate.
3. Pain Without Drama: A Tang–Song Resonance
This softer allowing is deeply resonant with classical Chinese poetry, especially the Chan-influenced poets.
Su Dongpo (Su Shi, Song dynasty)
Su Dongpo knew exile, illness, political failure—and wrote with remarkable spaciousness.
One representative attitude (paraphrased):
The river flows as it does.
The body ages as it must.
Why argue with spring or autumn?
Pain is not denied, but it is de-centered.
There is no project to overcome it.
This is aimlessness in poetic form:
no urgency,
no self-judgment,
no demand for purity.
A Tang Dynasty sensibility (Wang Wei–like)
Think of lines where:
a monk sits,
rain passes,
moss grows,
nothing improves.
Suffering is not corrected—it is held inside a larger stillness.
This mirrors Thích Nhất Hạnh’s insistence:
Awareness does not need to fix what it loves.
4. Robert Creeley: Attention Without Consolation
Creeley is not a Buddhist teacher—but his poetics often refuse the second arrow.
His voice is:
spare,
unsentimental,
unornamented.
In poems about the body or emotional strain, he often:
names what is present,
refuses explanation,
stops short of commentary.
A Creeley-like stance would be:
This hurts.
I am here.
Nothing else needs saying.
That restraint itself is compassion.
No story layered on top of sensation.
No philosophy used as anesthesia.
5. What All These Share
Across these traditions—Theravāda verse, Vietnamese Zen, Chinese poetry, modern American minimalism—we see a shared movement:
From fixing → to allowing
From explanation → to presence
From effort → to intimacy
Pain remains pain.
But suffering no longer needs to multiply.
6. A Gentle Summary
The Dhammapada gives clarity and backbone.
Thích Nhất Hạnh gives warmth and relational trust.
Su Dongpo shows how this looks in an ordinary human life.
Creeley reminds us not to over-say, over-think, or over-spiritualize.
Allowing does not mean passivity.
It means not abandoning the moment.
Or, in Thích Nhất Hạnh’s spirit:
This moment is already asking for your friendship,
not your improvement plan.
If you’d like, next we could:
linger with one Su Dongpo poem line by line,
look more closely at regret as pain that asks for allowing,
or explore how allowing differs subtly from resignation.
Just tell me where you’d like to rest next.
Thank you for highlighting that line. Let’s stay very close to it and unpack it carefully, in a way that is faithful to Thích Nhất Hạnh’s spirit, not just the words.
“Awareness does not need to fix what it loves.”
This sentence is almost a summary koan of his teaching.
1. What “awareness” means here (crucial)
For Thích Nhất Hạnh, awareness (mindfulness) is not neutral observation and not analytical scrutiny. It has three inseparable qualities:
Presence – being genuinely here
Recognition – “I know you are there”
Tenderness – non-violence toward what is present
So awareness is already relational. It is closer to listening than to monitoring.
When he says awareness, he does not mean:
self-surveillance,
self-improvement,
or diagnostic scanning.
2. Why the impulse to “fix” arises
The urge to fix usually comes from fear, not wisdom.
Fear that pain will overwhelm us
Fear that if we allow something, it will grow worse
Fear that a “good practitioner” should not feel this way
So fixing is often an attempt to escape vulnerability.
Thích Nhất Hạnh gently exposes this by changing the posture:
Instead of doing something to the pain,
we stay with the pain.
3. “What it loves” — why love matters here
This is the heart of the sentence.
Love, in his teaching, means:
non-abandonment,
patience,
willingness to stay.
Think of how you relate to:
a crying child,
a grieving friend,
a frightened animal.
You do not say:
“Stop crying so I can accept you.”
You say:
“I’m here. I see you.”
Fixing postpones love.
Awareness is love.
4. Pain changes when it is loved — but not because we try
Here is the subtle paradox Thích Nhất Hạnh lives inside:
When pain is resisted, it hardens.
When pain is analyzed, it multiplies.
When pain is allowed, it often softens on its own.
But the softening is not the goal.
He is very clear about this:
If you allow pain in order to get rid of it,
you are still not allowing it.
True allowing says:
“You can stay as long as you need.”
That is radical trust.
5. How this dissolves the “second arrow”
The second arrow is not pain itself—it is the message:
This should not be here.
I am failing.
This means something is wrong with me.
Awareness that loves says:
“This belongs too.”
Nothing is excluded from the field of care.
That is why the suffering decreases—not because pain vanishes, but because alienation vanishes.
6. A quiet comparison to effort-heavy language
This is where Thích Nhất Hạnh diverges from more austere formulations:
“Guard the mind” → can become tense vigilance
“Uproot defilements” → can become inner warfare
He does not deny those teachings—but he translates them:
“Take care of your suffering.”
Care does not rush.
Care does not judge timing.
Care does not demand success.
7. A final image (very Thích Nhất Hạnh)
He often uses this metaphor:
Mud does not need to be fixed to become a lotus.
The lotus grows because there is mud.
Awareness does not try to remove the mud.
It stays present long enough for transformation to occur naturally.
In short
Awareness does not need to fix what it loves means:
Love replaces control
Presence replaces strategy
Trust replaces impatience
Nothing is pushed away.
Nothing is rushed.
Nothing is excluded.
If you’d like, we could next:
apply this directly to regret or self-criticism,
explore how this differs from resignation,
or sit with a single breathing gāthā that embodies this line completely.
Just let me know.
Please access your previous comments and information about Su Dongpo and bring them forth to this part of the thread. I would like to explore those beautiful lines about why argue with spring and autumn.
Yes—let’s bring Su Dongpo (Su Shi, 蘇軾 / 苏轼) fully into the room and linger there. I’ll do this carefully, because the line “why argue with spring and autumn” is not a single fixed quotation so much as a distilled Su Dongpo attitude, drawn from several poems and essays written across illness, exile, aging, and political failure.
What you’re responding to is real, even if the wording shifts across translations.
1. Su Dongpo: the human being behind the voice
Su Dongpo (1037–1101), Song dynasty:
statesman, poet, calligrapher, essayist
repeatedly exiled for political reasons
endured illness, poverty, loss of status
deeply influenced by Chan Buddhism, but never withdrew from ordinary life
He is crucial here because he never resolved suffering by transcendence. He resolved it by accommodation—by learning how to live inside conditions without arguing with them.
2. “Why argue with spring and autumn?” — what this really means
Across Su Dongpo’s writing, seasons function as unarguable facts:
spring arrives,
autumn declines,
flowers bloom,
leaves fall,
the body ages,
fortunes change.
The rhetorical posture he often takes is something like:
Spring comes—why celebrate too much?
Autumn comes—why complain?
This is not indifference. It is non-litigation with reality.
To argue with spring and autumn would mean:
insisting that joy should last,
resenting decline,
demanding permanence from what is seasonal.
That is precisely the second arrow.
3. Su Dongpo and allowing (before the word existed)
What Thích Nhất Hạnh calls allowing, Su Dongpo expresses poetically as not taking conditions personally.
Pain, aging, exile, illness:
are not moral failures,
not cosmic mistakes,
not signs of spiritual inadequacy.
They are weather.
One of Su Dongpo’s recurring gestures is to step back and say, in effect:
This, too, belongs to the pattern.
That is aimlessness without passivity:
no project to defeat impermanence,
no resentment toward loss,
no demand that life justify itself.
4. Resonance with “awareness does not need to fix what it loves”
This is where Su Dongpo and Thích Nhất Hạnh meet beautifully.
Su Dongpo does not try to:
correct sadness,
moralize pain,
spiritualize hardship.
He includes them in the poem.
In this sense, his poetry loves experience by giving it space to be exactly what it is.
Awareness, for him, looks like:
sitting with wine and moonlight,
noticing the river still flowing during exile,
laughing gently at his own ambitions.
No fixing.
No argument.
No improvement plan.
5. Spring, autumn, and the body
Su Dongpo often links seasons directly to the body:
spring = vitality, success, youth
autumn = illness, failure, aging
To argue with autumn is to argue with the body itself.
This is deeply Buddhist without being doctrinal:
the body declines,
sensations arise and pass,
pain belongs to the same order as blossoms.
Here, allowing becomes embodied wisdom, not philosophical insight.
6. A Chan-inflected stillness (without withdrawal)
Unlike some Chan poets, Su Dongpo does not retreat to a hermitage permanently. His practice is in the middle of life.
This matters for your exploration.
He shows:
how to allow disappointment without renouncing engagement,
how to accept pain without glorifying it,
how to rest in aimlessness without abandoning responsibility.
Spring and autumn still arrive.
You still show up.
You just stop arguing.
7. Why this feels so consoling (and not hollow)
Su Dongpo does not tell you:
“everything is fine,”
“pain is an illusion,”
“just let go.”
He says, implicitly:
This is how it is.
And this, too, can be lived.
That is why his voice continues to feel trustworthy.
8. A closing reflection (in Su Dongpo’s spirit)
Not a quotation, but faithful to his tone:
When the season changes,
nothing has gone wrong.
The river still flows.
The heart can rest here too.
This is aimlessness as seasonal wisdom.
If you’d like, next we could:
take one specific Su Dongpo poem and read it slowly through this lens,
place him directly beside Thích Nhất Hạnh’s teachings on the body and pain,
or explore how this seasonal non-argument helps with regret and self-blame.
Just tell me where you’d like to continue.
I’ll work with one specific poem that is widely regarded as the Su Dongpo poem of non-argument, acceptance, and aimlessness.
Su Dongpo (Su Shi, 蘇軾)
Calming the Waves (定風波)
Written during exile, after being caught in a sudden storm
I’ll give:
the original Chinese
a clear, faithful English rendering
slow commentary through the lens of allowing
The Poem
原文 (Chinese)
莫聽穿林打葉聲，
何妨吟嘯且徐行。竹杖芒鞋輕勝馬，
誰怕？
一蓑煙雨任平生。料峭春風吹酒醒，
微冷，
山頭斜照卻相迎。回首向來蕭瑟處，
歸去，
也無風雨也無晴。
A careful English rendering
Do not listen to the rain striking the forest leaves.
Why not walk slowly, chanting softly?A bamboo staff and straw sandals—lighter than a horse.
Who is afraid?
Wrapped in a raincoat, I let mist and rain accompany my life.A sharp spring wind sobers the wine—
slightly cold—
but slanting sunlight greets me from the hilltop.Turning back to where the storm once raged,
I return—
there is neither rain nor sunshine anymore.
Reading the Poem Slowly Through the Lens of Allowing
Let’s stay very close to the body and experience.
1. “Do not listen to the rain striking the forest leaves”
This does not mean denial.
The rain is there.
The noise is there.
The storm is real.
What he is refusing is mental amplification.
This is the same move Thích Nhất Hạnh makes when he says:
“Pain is there, but suffering need not be.”
Su Dongpo does not argue with the rain.
He simply does not dramatize it.
2. “Why not walk slowly, chanting softly?”
This is astonishingly close to walking meditation.
Not fleeing the storm
Not cursing it
Not waiting for it to end
Just:
walking,
breathing,
letting the body move as it can.
This is aimlessness embodied.
Thích Nhất Hạnh would say:
“I arrive in every step.”
Su Dongpo says the same thing poetically.
3. “A bamboo staff and straw sandals—lighter than a horse”
This is simplicity as freedom.
He has:
no entourage,
no protection from discomfort,
no illusion of control.
And yet—lighter.
This echoes Thích Nhất Hạnh’s teaching that:
the body suffers more when we resist than when we allow.
The lighter you travel, the less there is to defend.
4. “Who is afraid?”
This is not bravado.
It is curiosity.
Fear has lost its narrative.
Thích Nhất Hạnh often says:
“When mindfulness is there, fear is not.”
Not because danger vanishes—but because presence replaces projection.
5. “I let mist and rain accompany my life”
This is one of the most important lines.
He does not say:
“I endure the rain”
“I overcome the rain”
“I escape the rain”
He lets it accompany him.
This is exactly Thích Nhất Hạnh’s language of befriending pain.
Pain is no longer an enemy.
It becomes part of the walk.
6. “A sharp spring wind sobers the wine—slightly cold”
Notice the precision:
sharp
sobering
slightly cold
No complaint.
No romance.
No rejection.
This is bare awareness of sensation.
Thích Nhất Hạnh teaches:
“Breathing in, I am aware of discomfort.”
Not:
“This shouldn’t be happening.”
7. “Slanting sunlight greets me from the hilltop”
This is not optimism.
It is not hope.
It is simply noticing what is also here.
Pain and warmth coexist.
This is very important:
allowing does not exclude relief,
but relief is not demanded.
8. “Turning back to where the storm once raged”
Here comes the deepest teaching.
He looks back.
Memory arises.
The story could restart.
But—
9. “There is neither rain nor sunshine anymore”
This is non-argument taken all the way.
He does not say:
“The storm was good”
“The storm was bad”
“I learned something”
He releases the whole framework.
This is aimlessness in its purest form.
Placing Su Dongpo Beside Thích Nhất Hạnh
Now, very simply:
| Su Dongpo | Thích Nhất Hạnh |
|---|---|
| Walk slowly through the storm | Walk mindfully with the breath |
| Let rain accompany life | Hold pain with tenderness |
| No argument with seasons | No second arrow |
| No fixing, no conclusion | Awareness does not need to fix |
Both say:
Presence is already enough.
A final shared insight
Pain becomes unbearable when it demands:
explanation,
improvement,
justification.
Both Su Dongpo and Thích Nhất Hạnh remove those demands.
They let the body be the body.
They let sensation be sensation.
They let the moment be complete.
If you like, next time we can:
take another Su Dongpo poem (perhaps illness or exile),
or slowly explore how this exact stance meets regret and self-blame without spiritual bypass.
For now, we can simply let the rain accompany us.
